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All Season Tyre choice

52K views 90 replies 26 participants last post by  Jim 
#1 ·
The Pirelli P Zero 255 55 R19 111W tyres are coming to the end of their life on my MY2017 F-Pace Portfollio.

I am looking for new tyres and want to buy All Season tyres to replace the current summer tyres.

Unfortunately the choice of all season tyres in 255 55 R19 111W is not huge and after looking for some time I have found these:

Vredestein Quatrac 5 255 55 R19 111W XL

Are these suitable for my car and are there any that JLR would recommend as equally or more suitable than these?

I would have preferred Michelin tyres, however I don't believe they do an all season tyre in my size!

Forum members please chime in if you have an experience of these (Vredestein) or other tyres.
 
#77 ·
jeffreywoodham said:
We seem to have virtually identical cars and I have never noticed any drop-off in performance in cold weather. After reading various comments on this forum it sometimes makes me wonder how I've managed to be accident free for the last 40 years without winter tyres.
Jeffery,

The Pirelli problem manifests itself when cold by skipping or sliding sideways when stating off on a full lock. EG. I reverse from my driveway and then have to turn full left to leave my Cul-de-sac and it's at this point that the 'drama' occurs. If you don't find yourself in this situation the problem never appears and as you drive the tyres warm up and act normally. I've had a Pirelli rep. out to witness this phenomenon and he could only say that once they warm up it will be all right. No shit Sherlock.

I've fitted Michelin All Season and the problem is gone.

Art
 
#78 ·
In snow I found the difference between the Pirelli P Zeroes and the Vredestein Quatrac 5 all season tyres was like night and day with respect to grip, especially when braking. My drive and the first 50 metres of road from my house is up hill, with the Pirelli tyres the car just made it to the top and then slid down the other side mainly under control and driving very slowly and using launch control and staying under 17 mph to keep it engaged. With the Vredestein tyres is was easy to simply drive up and down the slopes with no slips or any hint of loss of control without using launch control, but still keeping the speed down.
 
#79 ·
47jag said:
jeffreywoodham said:
We seem to have virtually identical cars and I have never noticed any drop-off in performance in cold weather. After reading various comments on this forum it sometimes makes me wonder how I've managed to be accident free for the last 40 years without winter tyres.
Jeffery,

The Pirelli problem manifests itself when cold by skipping or sliding sideways when stating off on a full lock. EG. I reverse from my driveway and then have to turn full left to leave my Cul-de-sac and it's at this point that the 'drama' occurs. If you don't find yourself in this situation the problem never appears and as you drive the tyres warm up and act normally. I've had a Pirelli rep. out to witness this phenomenon and he could only say that once they warm up it will be all right. No shit Sherlock.

I've fitted Michelin All Season and the problem is gone.
Art

I've had this phenomenum in all conditions since I've had the car. I just chose to ignore it as it only lasts for the first 90° turn which is about 400 yards from my house. I certainly don't have the feeling that I need to spend money on new all season tyres until the present ones are worn out when I might go for the Michelin Cross Climate tyre.

Jeffrey
 
#80 ·
Jeffery, I agree and didn't change my tyres until they needed changing at about 20,000 miles. When I did change them I went for all seasons tyres which are generally a better compromise for driving in most areas of England. Once I did change them they were much better than the Pirelli tyres, but I also found this with my XJ and XF (I'm not a fan of Pirelli tyres :oops: :D ).
 
#81 ·
Jeffery,

It's the Michelin Cross Climates that I have fitted. On the Pirelli's I got a real big fright one morning. I had to turn right across traffic, I saw a gap and 'went for it'. Instead of making the turn the car shot at a 45degree angle, leaping and howling until I backed off when it regained a bit of composure and made the turn. I still think there's something wrong with the steering geometry as even on the Michelin's I can still feel a 'slipping' sensation on lock. Not a lot but it's there. It's almost like the car can't make up its mind if it wants to be FWD or RWD but a lot better than with the Pirelli's.

Art
 
#82 ·
I am NOT a tyre engineer. But I understand some of the complexities and theory. It's interesting stuff.

There is nothing "wrong" with the steering geometry. It has been designed in this way because that is what market research told Jaguar their customers wanted.

You've bought a Sports 4x4 (or whatever the market moniker is today).

F-Pace customers didn't want a Land Rover Defender, as they want something that looks better. But more importantly they want something that drives better on the road - where they will be 99.9999% of the time - and they want 4WD for extra security. They want the car to be safe and composed at 150+ mph. In fact they want it to handle predictably at 150+ mph and still provide plenty of steering feedack.

They want it to be a big comfy compliant-riding family carrier at one point, and act like a "sports car" when the family and dogs have been kicked out and Dad/Mum is going on a solo drive along their favourite piece of twisty tarmac.

Which is why they spent so much time at the Nurburgring fine tuning things. (Like most other manufacturers). The F-Pace buyer demographic wants a large comfortable 4x4 family super-sports car.

This is all well and good, but gives the designers some headaches, and compromises have to be made somewhere. One of those is in the steering geometry.

The F-Pace is my wife's car (and the family car). It is a superb piece of kit.

My car is a Lotus. If you get upset at the low-speed steering scrub on your F-Pace, you would be very very angy indeed at the low-speed steering scrub on my car. :evil: You'd be apoplectic as it is terrible. Particularly in reverse. The front tyres chung-chung-chung as you go anywhere near full lock in reverse. It is not pleasant, but it does this for a reason.

And that reason is that the Lotus chose to set the car up with "Anti-Ackerman" steering geometry. Essentially (and very simplistically) the engineers / marketeers have placed high-speed handling / grip / feedback very high up the priority list. They've accepted that this will bring compromises at manouvering speeds.... can't have your cake and eat it mate.

The F-Pace isn't as extreme, but to get all the traits listed above for the F-Pace buyer demographic, they have clearly set the car up with the ackerman steering angles biased towards high-speed capability.

If you are interested in the topic, you might want to watch a couple of videos. Boring techy vids, possibly a bit too long for your needs, annoying Aussie accent (sorry Aussies ;) ) but hey... You need to watch them in order as the second vid assumes you understand the theories covered in the first.

Tyres and Slip Angles

Ackerman Steering (Pro and Anti)

Speaking about the 22" wheels (as that's what we have on ours) - the Pirelli P-Zero's are clearly a performance-biased summer tyre. They have been chosen to provide the high levels of grip, and immediacy of response that the F-Pace demographic want. Comfort/compliancy is compromised in favour of these factors. Because that is a compromise the F-Pace demographic are prepared to make. The rubber compound has been selected to optimise their performance capability - so they don't overheat when you find yourself on a clear 10-mile stretch of deserted tarmac when out for a summer run in the Highlands of Scotland. That was a nice run....

Unfortunately this means they don't work well at low temperatures. The compound is hard and unyielding as you get down towards 5DegC so it struggles to key into the surface of the road, and the sidewalls don't flex as they would in warmer weather when you apply steering loads / slip angles to the tyre.

On a hot summer day you can reverse on full lock and feel a little squirm from the wheel.

On a cold winter day you reverse on full lock and get some skipping from the tyres - they cannot follow the slip angles the steering geometry is requesting.

Stick a set of cross-climate tyres on. Hey presto - much reduced low-temperature skipping.

We just fitted Vredstein WintracS tyres to our F-Pace. Immediately all low-temperature skipping was completely banished. You don't even feel any "struggle" from the steering rim. These tyres remain sufficiently compliant of sidewall and adequately keyed into the road surface that this trait does not appear.

People increasingly want everything without compromise. Fast but frugal. Comfortable yet agile. Luxurious but cheap. Big but light. Tyres that perform well in hot and cold, in dry and wet conditions, on tarmac and snow and ice and mud, and sand. Car designers these days pull off some pretty impressive magic tricks, but as the great Scotty (allegedly) stated - you cannae change the laws o physics. :)
 
#83 ·
Very informative post and couldn't agree more. I must be bang in the middle of the demographic described!!!!
 
#86 ·
In preparation for trip to Alps over Christmas, looked at all the advice and decided on the All Season single set rather than the double of Winter and Summer - Sorry Arianne, but here in the Thames Valley, snow and ice are still unusual!

Finally decided on the Vredestein Quatrac 5 all season tyres, which took about a week to come in to local dealer from Holland(?). Immediately impressed by how much quieter they were than the P Zeros; and no low speed problems in the cold.

Advised that the minimum lead time for a replacement would be 48 hours, I took one of the old tyres home (still a few thousand miles in them) in case of a puncture, rather than buy a brand new temporary one. About 24 hours prior to leaving for the ferry, drove out and as soon as ICTP woke up it told me there was only 2psi in front near. Luckily, the location of the Phillips screw buried in it, allowed it to be repaired so I departed with a full set of matching tyres!

The alpine resort was c 2000m high, and the road changed to partially covered in snow from about 1300m on way up - clear on way down. No issues with grip. The lack of Armco barrier when you cant see over the edge of these climbs never ceases to unnerve me, so I am always happy to let the faster drivers past when convenient, so I was not pushing the limits of the tyres! (The climb out of valley was about 14 miles, and sat nav estimated about 50')

So, very happy with my choice.
 
#88 ·
If the weather forecast for tomorrow is anything to go by, it looks like quite a large number of us up in the northern hills, even those in the midlands and possibly further 'dahn saarf', might be going to get the chance to put our winter driving skills to the test over the next few days . . . snow is on the way, Yay! . . . those of us with our all season or winter tyres will be able to feel a sense of secure, smug self-satisfaction, as we watch everyone else on their summer tyres skidding and slip-sliding away.

Providing they don't get in my way, I'll be happy :D . . . take care out there and keep safe everyone!
 
#89 ·
I am actually looking forward to it however, dahn saarf there are a lot of drivers who don't moderate their driving regardless of conditions which makes me nervous to have one of the few cars car capable of stopping quickly and negotiating a hill. You don't want to do so only to meet Mr or Ms Rear Wheel Drive on Bald Tyres....

Nevertheless, can't wait :lol:
 
#90 ·
Smitten said:
I am actually looking forward to it however, dahn saarf there are a lot of drivers who don't moderate their driving regardless of conditions which makes me nervous to have one of the few cars car capable of stopping quickly and negotiating a hill. You don't want to do so only to meet Mr or Ms Rear Wheel Drive on Bald Tyres....

Nevertheless, can't wait :lol:
At least with winters and 4x4 you stand a better chance of getting out of the way of the summer slick drivers, I always keep one eye on the rear view mirror when stopped ....and enough space in front to shift out of the way too if needed.
 
#91 ·
Catwomen, what all season tyres did you end up getting, the Vredestein or had the Michelin Cross Climate come out by the time you swapped out the Pirelli P Zeros?

Last year the Vredestein tyres were great in the snow and given at the time a swapped mine I had a choice of one tyre for the 19" rims, I was pleased with how well they worked.

I have swapped my F-Pace for a Velar (I needed the pneumatic suspension because of an issue with my wife's back) and have even less choice with the 20" wheels I selected instead of the 21" standard wheels. It came with Goodyear AT tyres which are rated summer in this country by Goodyear but all season in North America where they have a different rating system than Europe. If they prove to be useless I shall be having a chat with JLR as I ordered the car with all season tyres not all terrain summer tyres.
 
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