Greetings from Norway

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corriescar66
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Re: Greetings from Norway

Post by corriescar66 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:19 am

catwoman wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:12 am
KHatman wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:27 am
I think your maths is "slightly" wrong. You'd need 200 gallons to do 10,000 miles @ 50 mpg surely?
Here's what I know: in our case we have a 50 miles per day commute (so that's 250 miles per working week) and it was costing £40 to fill the car with diesel each week. Since changing over to an EV and doing exactly the same commute it now costs only £7.50 in electricity per week. That's a saving of £32.50 per week, or to put it another way, £130 per month. Whichever way you look at that, it's a massive saving on pounds per mile and a fantastic economic benefit in running costs, which was the point I was making.

Whichever way you look at that, it's a massive saving on pounds per mile and a fantastic economic benefit in running costs, which was the point I was making.

Perhaps I should amend the statement I made about lame excuses and fossil propaganda to include lousy maths too! :lol:
Is it?

That's £1560 per year based on a commute 48 out of 52 weeks.

So in 5 years, provided you save every penny you 'make' you might be able to pay for the replacement battery.

Now lets add in the additional cost of buying the EV in the first place.

Wow. What a saving. I'll have two.

If some one would like to give me a free EV then I'll put my calculator away

The point Deltasierra was making is valid. To do 10000 miles in my X Type diesel costs about £1200. The car, despite being immaculate, is worth about £5k.

(The 3.0L s/c F Pace about £2k while a SVR will probably cost £2.6k ish)

You do the maths.


Deltasierra
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Re: Greetings from Norway

Post by Deltasierra » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:15 pm

LOL, Lousy maths :oops:
FPace 3.0D Portfolio Loire Blue, light interior, tow bar. No issues a very good car
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catwoman
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Re: Greetings from Norway

Post by catwoman » Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:25 pm

corriescar66 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:19 am
catwoman wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:12 am
Whichever way you look at that, it's a massive saving on pounds per mile and a fantastic economic benefit in running costs, which was the point I was making.
Is it?

That's £1560 per year based on a commute 48 out of 52 weeks.
Yes. Assuming 48 weeks, the commute was costing £1920 of diesel a year, it is now costing £360 of electricity a year, yielding a saving of £1560 for the same mileage. That's an 81% saving on travelling costs and a fact that can't be disputed . . . although I'm sure you're going to continue to try anyway! :lol:
. . been enjoying since July '16, 2.0d R-Sport, Ammonite + Black Pack, Jet/Red interior and a few useful options


KHatman
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Re: Greetings from Norway

Post by KHatman » Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:30 pm

Lousy maths indeed.

However I believe the maths isn't straight forward when weighing up whether EV is the right option for you at this moment in time and that's why I opted to go for diesel when renewing my car at the start of the year as this seemed more straight forward with more "constants" to base my decision on (well as far as you ever can in a moving capitalist society).

EV is a rapidly moving technology which I believe still has plenty of upside to come in reduced costs, range etc. I'm going to let this play out whilst I enjoy my "dirty" diesel for a few years. I also feel there is "Panorama - the true cost of EV batteries" type story to come mainly based on the environmental cost of producing and subsequently disposing of them. I think it suits the car manufacturers to have this drive towards EV as it will provide growth and sales as we all try to keep up with the Jones'.
2019 F Pace 2.0D R Sport, Manual, Corris grey and very little else


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KeithL
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Re: Greetings from Norway

Post by KeithL » Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:46 pm

catwoman wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:25 pm
Assuming 48 weeks, the commute was costing £1920 of diesel a year, it is now costing £360 of electricity a year, yielding a saving of £1560 for the same mileage. That's an 81% saving on travelling costs and a fact that can't be disputed.
But if the initial outlay is higher - someone said the I-Pace is about £25K more than the F-Pace, then that offsets the fuel saving each year. Using the I-Pace/F-Pace example it would take 16 years just to break even, by which time you would have had to replace the batteries at least once, possibly twice, at significant cost. I get the pence / mile benefit but I'm not convinced about the total cost of ownership. I'm not taking sides here, I just want to understand the bigger picture.
2017 2.0 i4 Diesel (180PS) Auto AWD Portfolio in Indus Silver with ICTP


KHatman
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Re: Greetings from Norway

Post by KHatman » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:09 pm

That's why I said the maths isn't straight forward as you'd maybe assume higher purchase cost gives rise to higher residual values but there probably isn't the historical data around to back this up yet. Maybe looking at the cost of leasing an EV compared to a conventional car would provide some form of guidance on the overall cost of ownership as overall cost is generally covered by the monthly lease cost.
2019 F Pace 2.0D R Sport, Manual, Corris grey and very little else


Smitten
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Re: Greetings from Norway

Post by Smitten » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:19 pm

I believe the Norwegian government has removed the 25% VAT on EVs which more or less cancels out the price differential with petrol and diesel vehicles. They are allowed to use bus lanes. Many employers provide high speed charging at work. It may not be a perfect solution but the Norwegians have moved a lot further a lot more quickly than we are likely to manage in the UK towards cleaner transportation. Over half of vehicles sold this year are EVs. Electricity is mostly hydro electric so clean to begin with. Of course the real solution lies not in EVs but a lot less cars of any type, less car journeys, less flying, less imports by shipping from abroad, less consumerism of all sorts but, that isn't a very palatable message...
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JOCK55
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Re: Greetings from Norway

Post by JOCK55 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:09 pm

Here is a very interesting article to add to the BEV/CE debate, with particular reference to practical experience of trying to complete distance journeys in the UK with the present infrastructure. It seems well written to me.

https://drivetribe.com/p/a-young-curmud ... IEz6dSkBLg
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catwoman
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Re: Greetings from Norway

Post by catwoman » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:35 pm

Thanks for posting the article link Jock, it is a very fair appraisal. The good news is that the charging infrastructure is continuing to improve all the time so those public charging anxiety hurdles are being addressed and will be overcome for long-distance drivers. Regular commutes (like our own regular 50 miles per day) are so much easier to manage because home charging overnight is such a no-brainer, convenient and cheap, you just wake up every morning to a 'full tank' of electrons (see pictures below). Since getting our EV it has only used a public charging station twice in the last six months, we've just not had any other need for them.

While we're posting links to articles for those who may be interested in finding out more, here's some up-to-date news about EV sales so far this year... https://insideevs.com/news/352156/april ... es-europe/



And, finally, for those who would like to see a real-world example of the economic benefits of living with an EV and how charging it overnight at home affects the electricity bill, here are the half-hourly readings from our smart meter this morning...
(please note, the following is CLASSIFIED info, for your eyes only) . . :lol: ...

smart meter readings - kWh.jpg

First pic shows the kWh usage overnight, from midnight up to 6:30am. For those who may not be familiar with smart metering, here's an explanation of what the bar graph, above, shows: There is a separate bar for every half-hour increment. At 12 midnight there is hardly any power being consumed in the house. At 12:30am the car starts charging and the bar jumps up, registering that the car has started charging at a rate of 2.7kWh (or 1.35kWh per half-hour increment as shown), this continues until 3:00am when the car starts to reduce it's 'pull' because the battery will have reached around 80% capacity. At 3:30am the car is still charging, but the domestic water heating immersion element has also kicked-in pulling 3kWh (or 1.5kW per half-hour - water heating occurs every night via a timer switch at about 3:20am for one hour). At 4:00am the car is still drawing some charge, but it's a further reduced amount, and the domestic immersion heater is still pulling it's 3kWh until 4:20am). At 4:30 everything has stopped again, until the kettle goes on to boil water for coffee at 5:30am and breakfast starts around 6:30am - you can clearly see the small bars for those two events.

Now here is the 'cost graph' for the same period, with an explanation of what is shown...

smart meter readings - cost.jpg

You can see when the car starts charging at 12:30, the bar graph registers about 5p total for the first half-hour (remember the unit rate is 5p/kWh and the car draws about 1.35kW per half-hour period, or 2.7kWh). The bar at 12:30am jumps up to register 30p because this is how the 25p per day 'standing charge' for our tariff is added every night. The remaining bars drop back to around 5p per half-hour period after that, until the water heating kicks in at 3:20am, as previously described. You can also see the small bars after 6:30am representing the rising household and breakfast time.

Looking at both graphs you can see that the total cost of electricity we consumed for the period since midnight last night was just 85p cost for 10.33kWh of electricity in total . . . and the very big thing is that the 85p includes household water heating, breakfast and just under 10kWh of consumption to recharge the EV battery back to full capacity for the day's commute again. Cheap as chips!

The Octopus Energy 'Go' tariff is perfect for people who want to charge an EV overnight; between 12:30am - 04:30am the unit rate is fantastically cheap, at a mere 5p/kWh, the rest of the time it is still competetively priced at just under 13p/kWh. Averaged out over 24 hours for our total domestic electricty usage we are only paying between 8p and 9p/kWh every day. It's been a brilliant tariff for us. Octopus seem to be a very forward-thinking 'green' electricity supplier; if you think you might want to switch over to them, follow this referral link and they'll even give you a £50 credit on your account to get you started with them - oh, and us too! . . so it's a win/win for everyone! . . https://share.octopus.energy/vivid-dodo-888 . . . that's electricity with a shameless plug (..and pun!) :P


Hope this long post is of help to someone/anyone who is interested . . and by the way, in the meantime I am still also enjoying completely guilt-free and trouble-free miles in my diesel guzzling 2 litre F-Pace, in addition to all of the above ;) . . but at almost three years old it is now on borrowed time; with all of what I have described in great detail above, the writing is clearly on the wall for all diesels in the near future (..and, soon after, petrols too most probably!) :D
. . been enjoying since July '16, 2.0d R-Sport, Ammonite + Black Pack, Jet/Red interior and a few useful options


corriescar66
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Re: Greetings from Norway

Post by corriescar66 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:01 pm

I don't think anyone would argue or deny that the cost to you every day is cheap and that 'economy 7' tarrif for overnight charging is great, but I don't think you're getting the point. (Do you need £50 referral bonuses to pay for your car?!)

Someone gives you a diesel car for free, with free insurance, free servicing and a warranty then the cost to you to drive it, for arguments sake, is the cost of the diesel only then you'd pay £1330 for 10k miles at £6.00/gal over the year. (in your case £40 for 250 miles is about 39mpg, so closer to £1540)

Someone gives you the same free EV deal and you only pay £300 to your 3 pin plug supplier for the electricity to do the same 10k, then whey hey, bargain - you're saving a fortune.

Now back to the real world, if the cost to buy an EV with battery is the same as a similar sized/functioning car/SUV etc then great, all hail the conquering green revolution.

If not (you keep the car for say 3 years) and the EV costs a mere £3715 more than a fossil fuel car to buy then you only break even, but you have, in effect, paid for the fuel in advance in the price of the car

If it costs £5k more to buy an EV than the 'normal' car then you lose about £9 a week etc etc. If it is £25k more to buy an iPace than an equivalent F Pace, then this would cost you an eye-watering £148 a week more....

This ignores any difference in servicing costs, depreciation, battery life/replacement costs, inconvenience or otherwise etc, but so do you. The less miles you do per year the less the mpg/fuel costs matter in relative terms....

Jock55's post/link is very interesting but does reinforce my view that an EV will not become my main car in the foreseeable future. I seriously looked at a Renault Twizzy as a short distance shopper, but can't really see the benefit over my Smart ForTwo. It does about 1000 miles a year and costs peanuts so the carbon footprint for making a new piece of plastic with a £60 pm battery hire charge just doesn't stack up.

Someone want's me to buy a horse. Not sure how many Oats/mile one needs, but the roses would clearly benefit.... Is a horse carbon neutral even if it doesn't pass wind?


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