F-Pace & LR 3.0 lt. V6 Diesel - Oil & Filter Test Anomalies?

Faults and Technical chat for the Jaguar F-Pace.
Bladerunner
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F-Pace & LR 3.0 lt. V6 Diesel - Oil & Filter Test Anomalies?

Post by Bladerunner » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:57 am

Hello all JLR V6 Diesel Owners,

Just wondering if you or your service centre have tested both your Oil & Filters during regular services?.

I have tested the oil in all of these vehicles and decreased service intervals to stay on top or determine the amount of D/Fuel dilution?, which varies from 2-3%+ - which I regard as high for these low km. vehicles 10,000 - 30,000 km., this Fuel dilution was also reflected in the low viscosity values of the Castrol Edge Professional 5w-30 C1 - as spec. by JLR, I did a 5,000 km. on one vehicle and still found D/Fuel dilution!, you must question the engine management and the multiple DPF regeneration cycles?, I would like to see a "Patch" or remap or deletion of the 5th. Piezo Inj. Phase on the Exhaust Stroke, I feel this will diminish or reduce this fuel dilution?.

I have also found "Metal" in the oil filters of these vehicles which I have also sent for a Filtergram Test by Micro-XRF, to determine the Metallurgy and hopefully the source within these engines?, I would like to know if these engines are manufactured in the UK or elsewhere by PSA/Ford or ???, to follow up on these results.

I would appreciate any feed back if you have had the same outcome, I am happy to share my reports with you if you are interested?.

John - Diesel Mechanic 45 yrs.+


June16
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Re: F-Pace & LR 3.0 lt. V6 Diesel - Oil & Filter Test Anomalies?

Post by June16 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:45 am

Hi,
Are you aware of this document ?
https://www.docdroid.net/KUMbEu2/2017-0 ... lution.pdf

I ask as the 3.0 L diesel V6 fitted to several JLR vehicles is causing early services due to fuel in oil problems.

This is undoubtably related to the SCRF system architecture as detailed in the JLR document, but can also be attributed in part due to short journeys in an EU6 diesel vehicle.

The service warning light is triggered by an algorithmic method , based on number of starts etc and will trigger at an estimated 6%. Dealers are not testing oil but relying on the estimate algorithmic figure recorded.
I have always changed oil on a diesel at 8,000 regardless of manufacturers claims.

Issues with fuel in oil dilution and early service discussions.

This includes the new Discovery 5. V6 3L
https://disco5.co.uk/forum/thread732.html


This issue first reared it’s ugly head on the 2L ingenium fitted to the discovery sport where there are several unhappy owners and many rejections. Same on the 2L Evoque.

It does not affect the same engined FPace due to a different SCRF system and engine layout ( in line ) , plus more space for a close coupled DPF .

A lot of research was carried out as below on the 2.L DS:

https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/view ... =17&t=5379

Service interval poll ( servicing should be at 21000 miles
https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/view ... =17&t=6469

Millers Oil analysis
https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/view ... =17&t=6132

Hope some of that helps to give some background information.
MY18 Rsport 25t BRG , Ebony - Oyster, 18 way mem, Surround Cam, blis, ICTP, LED adaptive....etc


June16
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Re: F-Pace & LR 3.0 lt. V6 Diesel - Oil & Filter Test Anomalies?

Post by June16 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:54 am

MY18 Rsport 25t BRG , Ebony - Oyster, 18 way mem, Surround Cam, blis, ICTP, LED adaptive....etc


Bladerunner
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Re: F-Pace & LR 3.0 lt. V6 Diesel - Oil & Filter Test Anomalies?

Post by Bladerunner » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:29 pm

Hello June16,

Thank your for the reply and those links, I must say after reading same JLR have a lot to explain about their lack Technical and Ethical response to this "Engine Longevity" problem of their own making, it appears that "Emissions" come before customer faith in the quality of the JLR product!.

SERVICE HISTORY: the vehicles I have been servicing were all 3.0 TDV6 both LR & Jag F-Pace MY16-17, all of these vehicles "Did Not" display any service warning lights or DTC's.

I routinely carry out SOS Oil & Filtergram Tests on all of the Diesel Engines I work on 45+yrs., this includes private vehicles and Marine Diesels up to 2,000hp, this D/Fuel dilution can be addressed especially with the the electronic EMS platform used on most modern D/Engines, I will post progress in this regard.


Bladerunner
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Re: F-Pace & LR 3.0 lt. V6 Diesel - Oil & Filter Test Anomalies?

Post by Bladerunner » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:42 am

Image

Image

Hello June16,

Firstly I hope all of the F-Pace forum have a great 2019.

I have att. pics. of the Injector system for the 3.0 lt. V6 Diesel as used in JLR Vehicles. FYI.

REASON: I am very concerned about the JLR 3.0 lt.V6 Diesel Engine Oil Dilution samples I have taken since my first post March 2017, these samples ranged from 5-9%+, 11% on 1 vehicle

PLEASE NOTE: None of these vehicles displayed a Service Warning Light?.

INTERIM SOLUTION: I have decreased OCI ( Oil Change Intervals) on some vehicles to 5,000 km. to keep the lubrication and Oil Quality close to specs. to hopefully prevent premature engine wear/failure, NOTE: I am aware of "Driving Practice" ie: short trips etc. which does trigger these raised levels, I did question the owners of these vehicles and found the majority were driving 1 hr. plus twice a day on Highways etc.

MARINE ENGINE HISTORY : I all my 45 yrs. plus working on Diesels up 2,000 hp. I would never leave a "Leaking Injector" in service on these working engines, the outcome above is the Diesel Engines "Nemesis"!, a leaking injector dilutes engine oil quality - viscosity and lubricity, if left untended/rectified it would increase sump oil levels - if not addressed engine failure is the result.

COMMENTS: I cannot understand why any Diesel engine designer/JLR included would adopt or incorporate this injection cycle as shown above - the late 5th. and possibly 4th.? Piezo Injection of Diesel Fuel into each cylinder on the exhaust stroke to raise exhaust temps within the DPF etc. this dd-fuel is ending up in the sump as reflected in all of my JLR test results of the used oil samples!.

STUPID QUESTION: why didn't they Injected Diesel into the exhaust "Post Turbo" to increase DPF Temps to meet emmissions?

ENGINE LONGEVITY ??????. I don't see local dealers doing Oil Sample Testing or recommending shorter Oil Change Intervals?

CONCLUSION ??? - I wont hold my breath, but I wish JLR would recognise this inherent design "FLAW" and design a PATCH or REMAP of the ECU to eliminate this engine "killing" injection cycle, JLR owners deserve this outcome!.


June16
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Re: F-Pace & LR 3.0 lt. V6 Diesel - Oil & Filter Test Anomalies?

Post by June16 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:46 am

Interesting !

The injection of fuel to the cylinder was brought in by manufacturers as it saves cost, is more efficient than the old way of injecting directly down line into the DPF ( SCRF) .
Injection g downline of the engine had no oil dilution issues as the diesel went nowhere near the sump.
The post injection was introduced around the time of the DOC , DOC was introduced so that passive regeneration could occur , supposedly reducing the number of active regenerations required. However the day to day driving of a diesel never gets the DOC hot enough to make any contribution or passive regeneration work. DOC normally strapped on to the turbo to get max heat.

The issue with some 3L V6 is that the SCRF (DPF) is so far up the end of the exhaust in some models that it never gets hot enough to actively regenerate efficiently, it fails to clear properly at times as it takes to long to clear soot and can also be affected by switching off the engine mid active regeneration. Thus the process of injecting fuel into the cylinder to clear the soot downline starts all over again next time engine reaches required temp and filter % full is activated.

Either more heat or a better performing substrate (chemical coating) inside the DPF would help.
At the end if the day the design is flawed in that soot cannot be cleared efficiently , requiring multiple active regeneration attempts, which just adds fuel to the sump through piston walls.

All vehicles with post injection leak fuel to the sump by design , but JLR are particularly bad .
MY18 Rsport 25t BRG , Ebony - Oyster, 18 way mem, Surround Cam, blis, ICTP, LED adaptive....etc


chastt
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Re: F-Pace & LR 3.0 lt. V6 Diesel - Oil & Filter Test Anomalies?

Post by chastt » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:49 am

This is all a bit above my head, however what I do know is that, like any design, the injection system is a compromise between cost of manufacture, reliability, performance and economy.
The cars have been produced to work with the suggested service intervals and whilst I am sure there will always be the odd failure here and there, these engines are not routinely blowing up. I don't really see why you think that the problem with this amount of fuel in the oil is an 'inherent design FLAW' requiring JLR to come up with a patch & re-map the ECU, and I'm happy to keep to the suggested service intervals with all of my JLR products.
2.0ltr Polaris White F-Pace for the commute and 3.0S Italian Racing Red F-Type for the weekend


June16
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Re: F-Pace & LR 3.0 lt. V6 Diesel - Oil & Filter Test Anomalies?

Post by June16 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:18 pm

chastt wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:49 am
This is all a bit above my head, however what I do know is that, like any design, the injection system is a compromise between cost of manufacture, reliability, performance and economy.
The cars have been produced to work with the suggested service intervals and whilst I am sure there will always be the odd failure here and there, these engines are not routinely blowing up. I don't really see why you think that the problem with this amount of fuel in the oil is an 'inherent design FLAW' requiring JLR to come up with a patch & re-map the ECU, and I'm happy to keep to the suggested service intervals with all of my JLR products.
The issue is not with the FPace, but if you read the original post you’ll see that the same 3L diesel V6 in the new discovery 5 and RRS Are having problems requesting early service . The vehicles are asking for an oil change in some cases at 5000 miles, I’m sure you can appreciate that can work out to be an expensive ownership.
Also the Discovery Sport and Evoque with the same 2L ingenium as the FPace in 180 model is asking for service at an average of 8000 miles and not the published 21000 , so something is definitely not right .

If it’s not a flaw why did JLR release this document stating “hardware and technical differances” are the cause, which results in “higher than expected number of regenerations”
And a list if all affected vehicles.

https://www.docdroid.net/KUMbEu2/2017-0 ... lution.pdf

No smoke with out fire as they say 🤔
MY18 Rsport 25t BRG , Ebony - Oyster, 18 way mem, Surround Cam, blis, ICTP, LED adaptive....etc


Bladerunner
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Re: F-Pace & LR 3.0 lt. V6 Diesel - Oil & Filter Test Anomalies?

Post by Bladerunner » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:27 am

F-Pace Owners - Just to let the you know the JLR Vehicles I refer to in my Oil Test references "DOES"! include 2 x F-Pace 3.0 lt. V6 Diesels, one of which had Diesel Fuel Oil Dilution 11%+ @ 7,000 km./4,400 Miles - I have since reduced the OCI's ( Oil Change Intervals) to 5,000 km./3,000 miles till I can get to the bottom of the cause. ie: DPF Re-Generations, Drive History etc.

This 11% OD (Oil Dilution) MY 2017 F-Pace has only 12,000 km./ 7,500 miles on the clock since new, so this does not sit well with me for the "Longevity" of this and others with similar OD Tests!.

I am sure JLR Dealers do not carry out OD Tests as my customers can verify, but they still seem to be promoting long Km./Mileage Intervals without the knowledge of the OD that I am seeing regularly in these vehicles!.

I will keep you informed of further results.

John


June16
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Re: F-Pace & LR 3.0 lt. V6 Diesel - Oil & Filter Test Anomalies?

Post by June16 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:26 am

Bladerunner wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:27 am
F-Pace Owners - Just to let the you know the JLR Vehicles I refer to in my Oil Test references "DOES"! include 2 x F-Pace 3.0 lt. V6 Diesels, one of which had Diesel Fuel Oil Dilution 11%+ @ 7,000 km./4,400 Miles - I have since reduced the OCI's ( Oil Change Intervals) to 5,000 km./3,000 miles till I can get to the bottom of the cause. ie: DPF Re-Generations, Drive History etc.

This 11% OD (Oil Dilution) MY 2017 F-Pace has only 12,000 km./ 7,500 miles on the clock since new, so this does not sit well with me for the "Longevity" of this and others with similar OD Tests!.

I am sure JLR Dealers do not carry out OD Tests as my customers can verify, but they still seem to be promoting long Km./Mileage Intervals without the knowledge of the OD that I am seeing regularly in these vehicles!.

I will keep you informed of further results.

John
Ah that’s a new issue then, surprisingly no FPace are calling for an early service, which differs from the previously known vehicles.

The JLRP document above was not openly released, I think someone got a copy from a dealer some time ago.
Several rejections of Discovery Sport and Evoque have used this document , so it’s understandable why it has never been updated and circulated.

Looking forward to your findings
MY18 Rsport 25t BRG , Ebony - Oyster, 18 way mem, Surround Cam, blis, ICTP, LED adaptive....etc


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