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Rubbing Noise - Front Half Shaft

131K views 384 replies 50 participants last post by  ben178 
#1 ·
Started getting a rubbing - creaking noise - couldn't really tell where from, but under the car generally.
Occurring randomly on and off, mostly on!!
Sounded like a piece of wheel arch trim or similar rubbing on a tyre.
Had a good look under and around all wheel arches - nothing obvious.

Took into dealer Barbagallo (Perth Western Oz).
They reported back that a rubber boot on a front (right?) half shaft was rubbing on a bracket.
Asked what had changed or moved to start the noise...um er well er its like um - you know the drill. mild BBB.
Anyway......warranty spares ex UK....about 2 weeks away....ok to drive meanwhile they said.

Again, stuff happens its how its dealt with and actually remedied that matters.

((3.0 diesel S, 20", production date 1 May 2016, delivered 2 Aug 2016, the first one on the road in Perth, Western Australia.
Got about 4,000km on the clock now.))
 
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#352 ·
Sorry to see this saga continues.

I read through this thread several times and was disappointed to see that the solution proposed ( the new steel in place of aluminium) componant was suggested as a cure.

From an engineers perspective that change of componant is reducing the symptom of noise and not fixing the source of the noise.

Their own doc mentions the cyclic click, which is what they should be investigating, yes at higher speeds this will present as an acoustic effect , but the route cause of click should be ascertained.
If this is bearing click through wear, it can only mean fractional incorrect angles as suggested was found also on here in one case and will get worse over time. It was put down as not meeting the CAD design.

One thing I haven't seen them looking at so far is the effect on the half shaft with respects to engine weight and compression of engine mounts or suspension. The diesel V6 is by far the heaviest engine in use. Any compression of engine mounts in excess off expected would change the relative position of the angle of the drive shafts.

The front half shafts are not usually of equal length in most cases which may explain the one sided effect that most see.
This noise is also a common reason for engine mounts to be changed when worn, although in this case they won't be worn, would appear to look fine , but may just be compressed so any "give" in their composition is negated. The same applies to suspension bearing the weight correctly is also a key factor and the condition operation of any CV joint.
In summary they should be checking the entire set up of drive to front wheels.

I fear they are looking to get rid of the noise (the simple cure) rather than looking at the route cause or source of the noise being emitted.

To say it is wheel size to me seems bizarre , but this may affect resonant amplification of noise , but the wheel centre height is the same 18 through 22 , it is just more wheel and less rubber wall at a larger wheel size less flex in tyre wall to deaden sound vibration due to flex.

In summary an old fashioned engineer , a rolling road and a bearing / noise stethoscope is where they should be starting. They do after all seem to have an abundance of affected vehicles to test

They seem to be just taking dealer input without any real solid methodical engineering tests.

I apologise to JLR if this is not the case, however it's a shocking state of affairs after all this time not to have the correct route cause and a resolution it doesn't exude engineering excellence in any way, shape or form.
 
#353 ·
I have from the very start been shocked by this level of customer care from the JLR group as a whole. What is even more stunning is how the fault was never indentified in the development program. As for sticking the same running gear in a new model and expecting a different result is the opitamy of stupid!!

I mean no disrespect Mr A by that, you were promised a fault free vehicle after the debarcle of you F pace. My advice,... go through auto express andpublc to stop some other poor bugger having to get stress out! They are at fault (JLR) not you,... time put a stop to this nonsense!!!
 
#354 ·
I have commented on the Velar forum, I will not rewrite it again. JLR you should be ashamed.
 
#355 ·
It is farcical this whole saga
I am new to this issue just over a week and I am fed up to the back teeth of the whole thing already. How some of you guys have gone months trying to get a resolution with JLR is beyond me.

From what I have read on here there is an underlying problem JLR obviously know the cause and have tried to rectify it with some bracket modification.
I am of the mind the actual cause and the repair costs would be massive that is why they are dragging there feet almost bury your head in the sand and it may go away.

I would love to know how many cars this is affecting some are say all of the range if that's the case they can't keep this under wraps forever.
Maybe we should all get together and become 1 big voice until they finally start taking this issue seriously
 
#356 ·
Thank you to all who have taken the time to post a reply, offer some advice and share their wisdom. Here's a flavour of the email traffic between me and JLR Customer Services (Amelia) before they decided to tell me that they now had absolutely no idea when the parts might become available.....
 

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#358 ·
devsan said:
Another note is it only the 3.0l models it's affecting ?
Mine is a 2.0l and the speed it starts is around 30-40mph and I read others it's anout 25mph
It is uncertain.

The 3.0d V6 is the heaviest of all the engines. Combined with the larger rim sizes (21" and 22") it seems that this combination is the one that creates an audible noise that can be heard in the cabin.

We established on this forum, way back in early 2017, that the issue was because of an imprecise build in terms of the alignment angle between the half-shaft and the wheel on the OSF. The CAD drawings hadn't been precisely followed when transferred to the production line. If this holds true then it could be that all F-Pace and Velar's suffer the cause but only some display the symptom of the noise (well, at the moment anyway).

I know that the diagnosis is true. I spoke to a dealer in southern England who had had two F-Pace cars returned and the guy was surprisingly open with me about the problem. I als spoke to Piers from this forum on the phone who confirmed it all.

My instinct is that I think this is probably true of the 3.0d cars. Whatever wheel size they are running, the underlying issue is likely to exist. Cars with smaller wheels won't generate the noise but the problem is still there. The decision to replace the bracket tackles the symptom not the cause. I cannot speak about the other engine variants as I have no experience or data.

I suspect that the cost of correcting the production issue and recalling existing cars is too high to stomach. So JLR might well choose to brazen it out - hoping that they can contain the problem in the media (which they have generally managed thus far) and pray that any deeper failures of wheel bearings etc. don't emerge until after the warranty has expired. With some chunky mileage on the clock (and any failure of this component would be mileage related), they can argue that it's a wear and tear issue.

Rubbish really. That's life, it seems.

Arianne
 
#359 ·
I would certainly recommend involving Auto Express as in my own case JLR don't like negative publicity and I know that the Watchdog article AE published has caused quite a stir at the JLR press office.
I found that dealing with Jaguar CRC was a frustrating experience as they were generally very unhelpful and in my case would not admit that a driveline vibration even existed on the F Pace. This was very frustrating as they had accepted the rejection of my first car and from postings on this forum it was obvious that the problem existed but the easy way out was to produce a statement that this problem was now a characteristic of the car. Shame on you Jaguar and your engineers.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4x1z0y64p3p7zs/Auto%20express%20article.pdf?dl=0

The above link to the Auto Express Watchdog feature may interest some viewers.
 
#360 ·
Hydrajaws said:
I would certainly recommend involving Auto Express as in my own case JLR don't like negative publicity and I know that the Watchdog article AE published has caused quite a stir at the JLR press office. office. office.
I have been a subscriber to AutoExpress for more years than I can recall. TBH, if we do decide to keep it and no one listens at the dealership or JLR then I think I will involve AE just because JLR then deserve it - irrespective of whether we get any resolution or not from the magazine's involvement.

Arianne
 
#361 ·
Just a thought Mr A,...if you started a thread both here and on Velar forum for fellow sufferers of this known problem, and generate some kind of numbers to forward on to AE,... this may get a better response. Their is nothing more powerful than a collective group of disaffected customers, who know both their rights and what resolution they want.

I guess the downside is that if a fault is going to be made more public,... then the risk to current owners could be a fall in value of their vehicle,... Again this is JLR's mess that needs to be sorted out, and should have been sorted out over a year or so ago.

They are fully aware of what is currently wrong,... and what needs to happen to get them all fixed. There is only two choices, they are unable then fix them , they are unwilling to fix them!

For what ever reason they have managed so far to convince VOSA this is not a safety issue, or they would be in a whole pile of *$%> up to their necks by now!

Either way they need to honest, and above all stop treating customers like idiots!,

They have now lost my future custom in the I pace by their appalling customer care from JLR and the greed shown by asking double the price for basically the same 22" alloys that I paid for on my 2016 F pace!! GREED , IGNORANCE , and ARROGANCE not traits really worthy of the Royal Crest don't you think!

Good luck in your choices Mr A
Regards JC
 
#363 ·
As a company JLR do themselves no favours

I know when I had b pillar welding issues on my 34 day old Discovery Sport they wanted to fix it by what I saw as vandalism. The recommended fix was hammer and chisel the door seams ( with as much force as necessary) , then drill out and reweld the b pillars . This required the headlining ,windscreen and all interior removing first. When I said no to this, they offered me to trade it in at a 12k loss.

Zero help from dealer initially and zero help from CRC, .so I waited till CRC went home from twitter and Facebook at 6 pm and vented my fury on there for 4 hours.
80,000 shares later and the next morning at 08:30, I had a phone call and had an offer to replace my vehicle at no cost with a condition - IF, and only IF, I deleted all my social media posts referring to the fault.

However:
The issue noted above by Jags cat is correct , you can end up devaluing your own asset. The course of publicising it on social media and on car review sites actually split the Discovery Sport forum down the middle, those with the issue, rightfully eporting it outside the forum, those with no issue seeing the vehicle being slated and felt aggrieved . Tempers were quite frayed on the forum at times, however the issue was purely the making of Land Rover.

If I was affected, I wouldn't hesitate to publicise it , they have had ample time to fix this . They are probably quite happy it remains on this small forum with little "outside"publicity. You never know It might just be the push they need to resolve it fully.
 
#364 ·
I made absolutely no progress with my vibration issue 12 months ago, just an endless string of denial, lies, dirty tricks, delays and rejection of the claim until I threatened to run a social media campaign. Their declaration that vibration was a "characteristic" of the FPace - they all do that, add that to apalling customer service, it was a gift. My logic was, if I'm going to hate this car every time I drive it I will have the satisfaction of costing them a great deal of cash, it as all set up then unexpectedly they made an acceptable offer.
I think I was out of pocket by around £1000 on that deal but by then there were discounts on new cars and I picked up a new 3.0D which now has just over 6000 on the clock and no problems. The first car went straight to auction and is still offered on an independant forecourt at less than 30k, the message that a lot of 2.0 cars are problematic seems to be well known, which does not bode well for future value.
 
#365 ·
It seems from catching up with this thread that I'm still the only person to have had the modified bracket fitted?

To be honest I have been lucky and have put his to the back of my mind but it still surfaces when people ask how the car is. I'm happy to report that it hasn't gotten any worse which I feared it might.

I was happy with the outcome of my case and I don't think I'll be in it long enough to worry about premature failure. I'm on a pcp so the value of the car is guarenteed anyway but unless they fix ICTP I don't think it will see it's 2nd birthday with me.
 
#366 ·
Hi All,
Experiencing the same issues on my 3.0d purchased in June last year (replacement). I had been advised last week from the tech guy at the dealership that the bracket "fix" is no longer a recommended option from Jaguar and has been pulled. I was expecting this to be done on my car back in January. On further investigation my car is now booked in to have work done on the passenger side wheel bearing as they said it was out!?! (I will get more detail when I drop it in next week). Why? The dealer had reported they had replaced 2 recently and thinks it could be related.
Fingers crossed!
 
#367 ·
Anthony777 said:
Hi All,
Experiencing the same issues on my 3.0d purchased in June last year (replacement). I had been advised last week from the tech guy at the dealership that the bracket "fix" is no longer a recommended option from Jaguar and has been pulled. I was expecting this to be done on my car back in January. On further investigation my car is now booked in to have work done on the passenger side wheel bearing as they said it was out!?! (I will get more detail when I drop it in next week). Why? The dealer had reported they had replaced 2 recently and thinks it could be related.
Fingers crossed!
Oh no, I had held out for the bracket fix for the Jaguar being adapted for my Velar. This is rubbish but timely. My dealer emailed tonight to tell me Amelia from JLR CRC is calling me tomorrow.

Thank you Anthony777 for your post. Could you PM me with your dealer's name and town?

Regards,

Arianne
 
#368 ·
this is a sad story
the more you look into it the worse it gets,
my dealership have decided to remain in radio silence about the whole saga
i had asked to converse via email so we all had a paper
since friday when i asked them for the people to contact to reject the car i have heard not a thing.

i have had to resort to something i dont like doing but have obtained the directors emails and numbers so have had to email them last night to try and provoke a response.

in the technical bulletin where it states the fix has been withdrawn and to deal with customers locally i think it means just ignore them as long as you can.
 
#369 ·
Okay, I have just been onto TOPIx. The earlier F-Pace technical bulletin JTB00577 has been withdrawn. That's why Renesis in the only guy on this forum to have had the revised mild steel component installed.

A new update, SSM73717 was issued on 22 January saying that, due to supply problems, the campaign for rectification has been suspended.

A similar bulletin appears on the Velar forum, SSM73764 dated 13 February 2018. It links to a helpful schematic (attached) and also included a sound file (.wav) which is exactly like my car.

So I now know that this is a widespread issue and not just affecting my car or a tiny number of others. Smaller rim sizes mask the root cause of the noise and this is mentioned in that they say the larger rims may accentuate the symptom.

I should get a call from Amelia at JLR CRC today as my dealer promised this last night in an email (all credit to them for not giving up and still working on my case at 6:45pm). I don't know what they will do as it looks like, unless we choose to reject the car, we are all stuck with the noise until the fabled new part becomes available. I wonder if they're fitting them to all newly built cars on the production line to stop the rot? Which means we are at the tail of the queue?

Arianne
 

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#370 ·
Funnily enough after my email to the MD I have had a call from JLR
They actually said they didn't know of any issue
Until I pointed out the tech bulletin
Then they have back tracked a little
And promised to call me
They have also said it is nothing to do with them regarding rejecting my car it is down to the dealership
Wish someone would take ownership on this debarcle
 
#371 ·
It's true, your legal relationship is with the dealership. Or, if the car was bought with finance, with the finance company. Usually, if the finance was arranged through the dealership then the dealer will provide you with a one stop shop and act on your behalf with JLR Finance. But if you financed the car through a PCP or HP deal externally then you need to reject the car back to them. That's because they actually own your car - you are just the registered keeper.

Obviously, if you paid cash or raised the money without any link to the car itself then it is a rejection back to the dealer.

Regards,

Arianne
 
#372 ·
Arianne said:
It links to a helpful schematic (attached) and also included a sound file (.wav) which is exactly like my car.
Arianne,

any chance you can post the .wav file for us to listen to?

Regards,
Mike
 
#373 ·
Well I find this very interesting and not surprising to be honest as like I said before the bracket didn't actually solve the problem just mask it further.

When I complained further the car was taken back in and inspected by several engineers from JLR and there verdict was that it was now classed as "fixed" and was a success.

I was then lead down the compensation route as trying to reject against the fix I didn't rate my chances. My case is now closed with JLR but if another "fix" comes out I'll be first in line!

I was told that the steel housing was to be installed to new production cars from Nov17 can anybody confirm that happened?
 
#374 ·
Renesis said:
Well I find this very interesting and not surprising to be honest as like I said before the bracket didn't actually solve the problem just mask it further.

When I complained further the car was taken back in and inspected by several engineers from JLR and there verdict was that it was now classed as "fixed" and was a success.

I was then lead down the compensation route as trying to reject against the fix I didn't rate my chances. My case is now closed with JLR but if another "fix" comes out I'll be first in line!

I was told that the steel housing was to be installed to new production cars from Nov17 can anybody confirm that happened?
You could get an independent inspection to see if the fix is to there liking as JLR have a history of saying something is fixed or does not have an issue when in fact it does.
Would not take JLR word for anything anymore.
 
#375 ·
As my dealer is trying to force me to take my car back and give them the loan car back I suspect I will be going down the independent report on this half shaft problem.

I feel strongly about the way it is all being brushed under the carpet.
Once I have had the car back stripped down and had the report done then it will be published for the whole world to see.
That is the only way I can see this whole mess being brought to a head
 
#376 ·
devsan said:
As my dealer is trying to force me to take my car back and give them the loan car back I suspect I will be going down the independent report on this half shaft problem.

I feel strongly about the way it is all being brushed under the carpet.
Once I have had the car back stripped down and had the report done then it will be published for the whole world to see.
That is the only way I can see this whole mess being brought to a head
Welcome to my world, sadly.

Perhaps, when you have received the report, you might send a special copy to JLR technical so that they get some help understanding what has gone wrong between the CAD and production line on the half-shaft. They might appreciate your privately commissioned expert's advice - they seem to have no idea how to resolve it themselves. At best they simply want to fix a mild-steel component to mask the noise and suppress it.

I have formally notified my dealer of our decision to reject today. I hope to hear more over the next few days. A very sad day. I found our Velar to be gorgeous but fundamentally flawed at the same time. This noise from the wheel, the flaky ICT, the paint blistering, the erratic tailgate, the condensation intrusion into the rear number plate lapholder knocking out the bulb, the failure of the Remote Start software to initiate the heated front screen for cold weather preconditioning and the faulty tailgate strut. My heart said yes, my head has finally overruled it and said no - as has my son and wife.

I have no idea what we will do next. I loved my F-Pace, I was heartbroken when I rejected her because I have never driven an SUV which had such thrilling and agile handling. I loved our Velar as we specified her to our exact requirements and she offered a calm, serene but connected drive. Both look gorgeous. I need a break from premium cars as I am not ready to take the risk again too soon.

I wish all of you well. If you have a decent Jaguar or Range Rover then you have something special out there.

Regards,

Arianne
 
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